Comments  21

• Forrest 10 Aug, 01:19 PM

  From a biblical perspective, disengagement is common. Abraham from Ur. Lot from Sodom. A bunch of fishermen from their boats; and on and on. The salient question, it would seem, is whether, when we disengage, we are following God in doing so. God called Noah to disengage from society, which was a good thing. At times he called David to disengage from Saul, (and he should have refrained from engaging Bathsheba).
  
  Our lives are a series of engagements and disengagements; associations and associations past. There is a time for all such relationships, some wise, some ill-advised, and some downright sinful. The wise Christian walks in accordance with the clear guidance of scripture, and engages and disengages with prudence. This is true whether it be a personal, professional, or denominational relationship.
  
  And always bear in mind that God can even take our missteps along those paths and turn them into good. Just ask David about Solomon.
  
  

• Mike 10 Aug, 03:12 PM

  I've been in the pastorate since the mid 1980's and have been engaged to and become disengaged from numerous churches over the years.
  
  Speaking only for myself, God has always seemed to use circumstances (like a new opportunity) combined with my feelings (a sense that a change in coming) to move me from one church to another. I have never operated solely on the basis of my feelings, but God did create us with feelings for a purpose. When I no longer sense (feel) that keen "burden" for the church I am pastoring, for example, I can be sure a change is in the offing. But even then, that "feeling" works in concert with other things.
  
  This where all of us as believers need to be aware of the many ways God communicates His will to us. First and foremost through His Word, but He also speaks to us through the world around us; in circumstances and through other people. Just imagine if Moses had been so preoccupied that day that he overlooked that burning bush! We need to be very aware of and walk in God's presence continually.
  
  Sometimes, admittedly, God's call is difficult to discern; His will is obscured by the very feelings we used to trust! When this happens, I always think of Jonathan and his armor-bearer. The story is recounted in 1 Samuel 16, but the gist is this: Jonathan and his armor-bearer were totally alone facing the mighty Philistine army; their compatriots had retreated in fear and shame. In the middle of the night, Jonathan made a most remarkable statement:
  "Come, let's go over to the outpost of those uncircumcised fellows. Perhaps the LORD will act in our behalf. Nothing can hinder the LORD from saving, whether by many or by few." Jonathan didn't know exactly what to do, but he had an opportunity, a little faith, a little knowledge of the power of God, and a faithful armor-bearer who was behind him 100%. Of course, these two men, aided by God, defeated the entire Philistine garrison that night. It all boiled down to this philosophy: Go, unless you get a no.
  
  Sometimes walking by faith is like that. But we have to believe that a righteous man's steps are directed by the Lord (Psalm 37:23).
  
  

• Loren Golden 10 Aug, 05:09 PM

  In the past fourteen years during which I have been a member, my church home (Colonial Presbyterian, a 1700-member, two-campus congregation in Kansas City, MO, and Overland Park, KS) has experienced disengagement from two senior and five associate pastors. Three of them retired, three accepted other calls, and one was let go because an outside consulting firm informed the session that we were overstaffed with one too many pastors. Moreover, there have been many disengagements from various staff members who have left to accept other calls and members who have moved away or have sought church homes elsewhere.
  
  Now, Colonial is preparing to disengage from Heartland Presbytery, and this disengagement, while a long time in coming, promises to be long, difficult, and drawn out. After a season of discernment that began in January, our session recommended this past Sunday that Colonial disaffiliate with Heartland Presbytery and the Presbyterian Church (USA) and seek affiliation instead with the Evangelical Presbyterian Church. This recommendation was not made hastily or without counting the cost, but only after much prayer, Bible study, and fasting, and after much discourse with both the congregation and Heartland Presbytery’s Administrative Review Committee and Administrative Commission.
  
  During the 1983 reunion, Colonial came into the PCUSA from the PCUS, and our senior pastor at the time, Dr. Ted Nissen, recommended that Colonial remain to be a beacon of truth and light in the context of a presbytery and denomination that was becoming increasingly compromised to the world with the hope that Colonial’s testimony would help bring Heartland Presbytery and the PCUSA back to Biblical faithfulness.
  
  That has not happened. Despite Colonial’s testimony, Heartland Presbytery has consistently voted against Biblical ordination standards (in particular Book of Order §G-6.0106b), and every time Colonial brings a candidate for ministry for examination by the presbytery, an argument inevitably erupts with several members of presbytery emphatically insisting that they do not believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ from the grave. One minister member even said at one of Colonial’s town hall meetings early in the discernment process that to believe that faith in Jesus Christ is the only way to be made right with God is arrogant. As I look forward to the prospect of pursuing a seminary education and ordination to gospel ministry in a few years, I see Heartland Presbytery as a shepherd that I do not want—its rod and staff do not comfort me.
  
  Nevertheless, this disengagement promises to be messy, for Heartland Presbytery has threatened to sue Colonial for her property if and when she disaffiliates, despite the fact that a non-binding survey of the congregation this past May revealed that more than ninety percent of the 1183 members who responded (including Dr. Nissen’s widow) believe the time has come for Colonial to disaffiliate.
  
  Thus, the session has called a special congregational meeting on August 22 to decide Colonial’s direction. On behalf of Colonial Presbyterian Church, I covet your prayers for the meeting and its aftermath.
  
  In Christ,
  Loren Golden
  Deacon of Communion, Quivira Campus
  Colonial Presbyterian Church
  Overland Park, Kansas

• Elderyl 10 Aug, 05:25 PM

  I don't know if I am comfortable with the terms "vacuous" and "vapid" but I am disengaging from a church where I "have forged real friendships, spent countless hours serving, invested time, talent and resources "– because I cannot sit under leadership who preach that the "best we can do is preach a relativistic interpretation of Scripture." I leave feeling ostracized and belittled by my "familiar friends" who tell me that my belief in the Word is "too conservative" and thus exclusive. It seems ironic that I can no longer sit with my brothers and sisters in that church without feeling excluded by their words and actions they intend to be "more inclusive."
  
  The problem now is, where to go?

• Larry Brown, African Bible College 11 Aug, 02:26 AM

  In terms of people leaving the PCUSA, there are three kinds of disengagement; let us speak of Disengagement of the First Kind, Disengagement of the Second Kind, and Disengagement of the Third Kind. In Disengagement of the First Kind, congregations vote to leave the PCUSA as intact congregations, wishing to retain their property. The PCUSA power structure has demonstrated an ability to keep sheep within the fold through litigation, firing of ministers, dissolving of sessions, changing locks on doors, etc. The power structure can keep Disengagement of the First Kind to a minimum.
  But then there is Disengagement of the Second Kind, in which Mr. & Mrs. John Q. Pewsitter keep their membership at the local PCUSA church, but attend less often, and give less money. The power structure is powerless to prevent this kind of disengagement.
  Finally there is Disengagement of the Third Kind, in which Mr. & Mrs. Pewsitter vote with their feet and walk out the door, never to be seen again. Again, the power structure cannot stop this; no court in the land can force people to go to a church they don’t like.
  In days to come, the power structure will become increasingly top-down. They will get more of their agenda passed, such as GLBT ordination. But as membership dwindles, more congregations will be unable to support pastors. PCUSA seminaries will struggle to place graduates. Faculty positions will be cut. Money will get tighter, making such favored items as lobbying for left-wing political causes and support for the WCC more difficult. The power structure will never relinquish power, but how would you like to have been the captain of the Titanic?
  So whatever one thinks of “disengagement,” it’s inevitable.
  
  Larry Brown
  African Bible College

• Jim Yearsley 11 Aug, 02:15 PM

  Having tired of direct engagement in the battle with the progressive church deconstructionists some time ago, I realize that Larry is really on to something but, he missed one more form of disengagement.
  
  My brother Bob Kopp's term for it is creative neglect. Congregations are increasingly ignoring the judicatories and their death spiral. These faithful and orthodox congregations are focused on the ministry to which God has called them - in the place He has put them. They are no longer wasting time, energy, and resources on a denomination which is increasingly irrelevent to the Gospel.
  
  Read Mr. Brown's final paragraph again. I think he has pronounced a very likely future for the PC USA. Those of us who are dismayed, disheartened and disgusted by the seculaization of this denomination really need do nothing. It will self-destruct - and sooner rather than later.

• Larry 11 Aug, 05:50 PM

  I disengaged from the PCUSA five years ago. I felt my energies would be better utilized in a denomination that was not confused regarding theology.
  
  There are several denominations and independent churches that offer clear Biblical teaching. There is no reason to keep beating one's head against the proverbial wall in the PCUSA.

• Mike Zorn 11 Aug, 07:54 PM

  A friend at our church said that she felt that joining a church is like getting married: you plan to be in it for the long term, and if there are rocky parts, you plan on doing your best to work it out.
  
  I see a lot of sense in that, but what do you do when the "spouse" goes off the deep end, or won't reconcile?
  
  Today I'm referring to comments made by Bruce Reyes-Chow (former GA Moderator):
  
  Reported in the "NamingHisGrace" blog:
  http://naminghisgrace.blogspot.com/
  
  He was speaking at a protest demonstration against California's Proposition 8.
  
  "We will no longer stand and allow the message of hope, compassion, justice and love to be drowned out by the screams of hatred, oppression and injustice [applause]. "
  
  When the leadership of PC(USA) sees us as "hateful, oppressive, and unjust", I have to wonder if there can be any reconciliation.
  
  The question we need to face is whether or not we can make any headway by staying behind and trying to work from within.
  
  Once again, Mr Brown is on the mark. As conservatives leave in droves, the Progressives gain more power. (Another letter-writer noticed that in the new wave of youth at the GA, many of them seemed to have a scant background in Scripture.)
  
  As the GLBT coalition got most of their agenda passed this time - except for redefining marriage, we can expect that to be at the top of the list in 2012.
  
  By then, they may well have taken over the playground.
  
  Mike Zorn
  Santa Ana

• ben vernon 12 Aug, 09:34 AM

  very thoughtful
  
  not sure how to respond

• JimC 12 Aug, 08:20 PM

  I watched in horror as my daughter struggled to walk a straight line across the floor nearly toppling over in January of 2009. She had already lost her memory and was withdrawing more and more. We prayed for a diagnosis and were blessed to get one just in time, she almost did not make it. The treatment was harsh Chemo therapy and massive steroids 100 milligrams a day! It was disfiguring and painful.
  My Daughter has Lupus SLE her body attacks itself from within.
  What does this have to do with the PCUSA? The cure is clear the medicine is hard and the evangelical churches have almost total control in this one area.
  But the evangelical pastors in particular, are too arrogant to work together, or submit their egos, they are more worried about being the loudest voice in the room, then weather change will really happen…Ultimately, they are too weak to confront this denomination in a way that will actually make a difference. How long will it take before the cure shows measurable signs of progress? 24 months. 24 Months is the time it would take for the medicine to work. What is the treatment you ask? We have been at this so long, spent so much time lobbying, meeting, complaining and ceaselessly arguing about staying and going… but that is not the medicine! When you are attacked from within, you must starve what is killing you, stop feeding the illness.
  For the next 24 months, only fund that which is giving life to the gospel, only fund the church at its growing edge. That means 100% of every dime going out of your local church must fund Christ honoring ministry. Then, Celebrate what is being birthed and visit that place(s) and see what blessings God has for you… There are so many.
  This is where the weak will object. Fine, go and be sick, but it’s already over. I challenge you to take the 24 month cure, and invite a neighboring congregation to do the same. I pray that God may strengthen you as you take your stand for the gospel in these days.
  

• Jodie Gallo 13 Aug, 12:24 AM

  Carmen,
  
  I thought you left the PCUSA already.
  
  You remind me of this woman who left her husband and spends her time trying to convince all her friends to leave their husbands too, so she can feel validated.
  
  But all this self-righteous bigotry won't be satisfied even after "disengaging". Why? Because it is all way too much fun.
  
  Look at Larry Brown, for example. I don't think he ever was a member of the PCUSA. He lives in dirt-poor Africa, where the issue is whether killing gays is OK, and real men have as many wives as they can afford cows to pay for, and bigotry against people with birth defects is rampant, and albinos are murdered for being witches, but what he can't seem to stop talking about is the internal politics of the PCUSA.
  
  Obviously it is way too much fun.
  
  If you guys spent half the energy focusing on following Jesus as you do beating your orthodox chests about the evils of the PCUSA, somebody might actually remember the Gospel.
  
  Or did Jesus separate the sheep and the goats because they had different views on the nature of marriage, human sexuality, and ordination criteria?
  
  Not even close.
  

• Sarah Norman 13 Aug, 01:19 AM

  I could wax poetic and make grand allegories, but all of the above have already done a better job at it than I can. So here is what the Spirit speaks to my heart:
  
  My husband and I were married in another denomination (even more liberal, if you can imagine that!) but by a very holy and reverent pastor. His sermons were truly of and in The Word and we hung on every piece of them. He was a godly man and was "our favorite, ever." I often wished that I could gather the courage to invite friends to church with us to hear his messages, but I rarely did.
  
  Then one Sunday we were stunned to learn that he was leaving sunny Ohio for blissful California and we were crushed. I went through all of the phases of grief over this "disengagement" and wished for ways to make him stay.
  
  Then it occured to me: if I would "let" him go to this new church of 500 people, it would be my gift to them, akin to bringing 500 new people in through the door for one of his sermons. This realization brought me great peace and (almost) joy! At last I would be able to do the thing I had long wished, but always failed at!
  
  I wish I could say that every disengagement since has gone as swimmingly. I suppose that it's the disengagements for which I can find no purpose that I actually have to grapple with. Rx: a little extra time on my knees in prayer.

• Larry G. Pittman 13 Aug, 01:55 AM

  Jim C. has a good point. What we have done in the last four congregations I have served, including the present one, is this. We have announced to our members that we will send money to Presbytery only if those who give it designate it to go there. About the only money Presbytery gets from us now is our quarterly offering for Five-Cents-a-Meal. Too bad I seem to be the only minister member of the Presbytery who has ever had the guts to stand up and challenge the exorbitant salaries Presbytery Execs make. If genuine Christians in the Presbyteries had the nerve to stand up and oppose the election of these false brethren to those posts, maybe we could start turning things around. After all, a large part of our problem is that so many ministers who are so liberal that almost no congregations want them as Pastors keep getting elected to positions of power (which used to be positions of service, instead) and they are running the bureaucracy that is running the denomination into the goround.

• Carmen 13 Aug, 10:42 AM

  Mr. Gallo,
  
  Although I find your language and the characterization of our African brothers and sisters in Christ offensive, I have allowed your comment to be posted in a spirit of free speech.
  
  I was ordained as a Minister of Word and Sacrament in the PCUSA in 1993 by the presbytery of Tampa Bay. I have served congregations and been a member of the presbyteries of Mission, Northeast Georgia and Charleston-Atlantic in my 17 years of pastoral ministry. I continue as a member-at-large of my presbytery today. So, no, I have not left and have no intention of leaving. To this denomination I was called and in this denomination I will remain. Calling her tirelessly back to her first love. Reminding her of God's desire that she be pure in order that her witness in the world as the Body and the Bride of Christ might be undefiled and in order that she presented honorably to God's son, Jesus Christ, in the fullness of time.
  
  I don't know if you are reading the equipping section of The Layman, but in each issue we are seeking to offer Bible study materials that exalt Jesus Christ and more fully equip His people for the work of ministry. The current issue focuses on Biblical revival. We are committed to informing Presbyterians about what is happening in the life and ministry of the denomination and we are equally committed to do our part in the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry.
  
  If there are specific instances where I have failed to speak the truth in love, I am open to correction. If there are times when I have failed to present the Gospel in accordance with the Scriptures, I invite God's discipline. I am seeking to live my life and fulfill my calling full of grace and truth.
  
  In Christ, with Christ and for Christ, alone,
  
  Carmen

• David Kwon 13 Aug, 11:06 AM

  Each self proclaiming Christian is called to follow his/her Savior as a witness(martyr). For that is the purpose of our existence as Christians and our corporate existence as a church.
  
  Kingdom of God is for those who will become His witnesses in Jerusalem(here) and the ends of the earth(overeas mission).
  
  For the discerning folks like you, I would suggest us prioritizing our time and energy on what saves us.
  We are living in the end time, aren't we? stay awake and focus!!!
  

• Jim Yearsley 13 Aug, 03:10 PM

  Mr/Ms Gallo:
  
  Shame on you.
  
  Ad hominem attacks on those with whom you disagree are disgraceful. In addition they tell the world much more about the attacker and his/her (lack of) character than they do about the victim(s).
  
  Rev.s Fowler and Brown have chosen to stand upon the ground to which God has called them - and in those places to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus. Not - as seems to be your wont - to engage in personal denigration.
  
  I would repsectfully suggest you go to Malawi, spend some time on your knees among the faithful and faith filled Christians there - and perhaps ask pardon for the evil you have spewed about them, Larry, and Carmen.

• Michael 13 Aug, 10:46 PM

  I think the Layman constituency should face reality and disengage from the PCUSA and join the PCA or EPC. I don't think constantly fighting a losing cause is especially winsome. You're not the first to have trod this ground; there is a reason that other denominations are in existence.

• Mike 14 Aug, 10:44 AM

  Little is attractive on your web site or articles. Anger and bile pervade. I recommend you disengage from your denomination and struggles, so you may somehow regain the Christian virtues of love, joy, and peace.

• Jodie Gallo 14 Aug, 01:57 PM

  Dear Rev. Fowler,
  
  I must apologize. I thought you had left the PCUSA with the others. But then I have to ask. If you yourself are so devoted to serving and staying with the PCUSA, why do you work so hard to encourage others to leave her, this blog post included? It makes no sense.
  
  Obviously I reject your self-characterization of “calling [this denomination] tirelessly back to her first love” as self-righteous and self-serving. You ask if there are specific instances in which you fail to speak the truth in love. The headlines of “the Layman” are full of many things, one could argue more often twisting the truth rather than really speaking it, but “in love”?! What would be your version of hate, I shudder to ask?
  
  As far as Africa is concerned, you and Mr. Yearsley must have misunderstood me. I just got back from Africa. Those really are issues our Christian brethren have to deal with as is plain to see and as they themselves report. The object of my example is that real “disengagement” is not a physical thing, but can only come as a state of mind, and that you don’t even need to leave this thread to see that. How did I offend?
  
  But it is amusing how you folks tear your garments decrying how offended you are every time somebody points out even the simplest and most obvious inconsistencies in your own “witness”. You devote yourselves to insulting all Christians who fail to uphold your own exclusionist points of view with a whole dictionary of pejoratives, but when called on it, you run and hide behind your own religious façade. Jesus called you out for what you are, not us. If you really must take offense, then take offense at Him.
  

• Rocky 17 Aug, 06:17 PM

  Loren,
  I was a member of Heartland Presbytery for three years, from 2004-2007, and the Moderator of its CPM for two of those years, so I conducted multiple ordination examinations. Never once did any argument take place in which, as you say, "an argument inevitably erupts with several members of presbytery emphatically insisting that they do not believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ from the grave."
  
  Never.
  
  What did routinely happen was that coalitions of elders and ministers lined up to question candidates being called by more liberal churches to make sure that they subscribed to a doctrine of bodily resurrection.

• Loren Golden 20 Aug, 09:31 AM

  Rev. Supinger:
  
  First, when Colonial's Director of Operations and Pastoral Care stood before Heartland Presbytery within this past year, having graduated with a Master of Divinity degree from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in Deerfield, Illinois, as a candidate for ordination to Minister of Word and Sacrament, members of Heartland Presbytery openly challenged him on his statement of faith, stating that they did not believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
  
  Second, you and I are not personally acquainted, and this is a public forum. Therefore, I request of you the common courtesy that you address me as Mr. Golden or Dea. Golden and not assume familiarity by addressing me by my first name.
  
  In Christ,
  Loren Golden
  Overland Park, KS